Manny Ramirez Trade Deadline Thread (renamed) [Archive] - Talksox

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TheKilo

07-29-2008, 03:05 PM

http://blogs.nypost.com/sports/st/archives/2008/07/trade_deadline_1.html

Breaking out from the Manny thread:

The Red Sox and Dodgers are engaged in substantive talks involving Manny Ramirez, according to sources, and if a deal can be finalized the expectation is that Boston would push to the front of the line on obtaining Mark Teixeira from the Braves.

The Mets New York Mets have continued to talk to the Red Sox without much possibility of finding a deal for Ramirez. The main track now involves the Dodgers. An executive who has spoken with officials from an involved team said it is his understanding that Boston would eat most, if not all, of the roughly $7 million left on Ramirez’s 2008 contract and in exchange would receive a top youngster such as Matt Kemp or Andre Ethier.

If they obtain Teixeira, the Red Sox could use current first baseman Kevin Youkilis either to replace Ramirez in left or as part of the trade for Teixeira.

My question becomes - if you move Manny for Kemp or Ethier/+, why even bother trading for Teixeira? Youkilis for Tex is a lateral move, especially at a 2 month rental:

Kemp for 5 yrs + Youk for 2 >> Kemp for 5 yrs and Tex for 1/2 yr

jacksonianmarch

07-29-2008, 03:16 PM

I would assume that any Tex deal comes with the caveat of an extension

ORS

07-29-2008, 03:19 PM

Don't know, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I'd stand pat with Kemp and Youk.

Kemp would be a boon for the future of the team. He's 23 and putting up an .813 with 12 dingers and 23 steals in Dodger Stadium. He could approach 30/30 in Fenway with fabulous D to boot.

TheKilo

07-29-2008, 03:29 PM

If Theo can turn Manny into Kemp for the rest of the year....wow.

What if the move for Teixeira comes from Jacoby+? Slide Youk to left, play Kemp in Center?

TheKilo

07-29-2008, 03:33 PM

All for naught?

http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/8389526/Big-names-could-move-before-deadline?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=3498

The Dodgers are not pursuing Red Sox left fielder Manny Ramirez or Braves first Mark Teixeira, according to major-league sources. Their priority remains a shortstop, and they might end up with only a backup at the position, if anyone.

The Red Sox contacted the Dodgers about Ramirez, just as they've contacted virtually every team that might be interested in the slugger. The Dodgers, however, dismissed the idea, balking at the likely asking price and the circus-like atmosphere surrounding Ramirez.

"There's too much going on there," one source said.

zackredsox

07-29-2008, 03:36 PM

If Theo can turn Manny into Kemp for the rest of the year....wow.

What if the move for Teixeira comes from Jacoby+? Slide Youk to left, play Kemp in Center?

I'd rather move Teixeira to left. I think Youk might be slightly better at first then Teixeira. Plus Teixeira can also play OF.

TheKilo

07-29-2008, 07:20 PM

I'd rather move Teixeira to left. I think Youk might be slightly better at first then Teixeira. Plus Teixeira can also play OF.

How many games has he played there the last 5 years?

a700hitter

07-29-2008, 07:23 PM

Manny for Kemp?:thumbdown Good for the future, but bad for this year.

TheKilo

07-29-2008, 07:26 PM

Manny for Kemp?:thumbdown Good for the future, but bad for this year.

They aren't going anywhere this year.

ORS

07-29-2008, 08:35 PM

Manny for Kemp?:thumbdown Good for the future, but bad for this year.
This is the last year of the league?

a700hitter

07-29-2008, 08:39 PM

This is the last year of the league?I apologize for wanting to win this year.

zackredsox

07-29-2008, 08:42 PM

How many games has he played there the last 5 years?

How about 6 years. 32

TheKilo

07-29-2008, 08:42 PM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/07/29/manny.dodgers/index.html

The Red Sox appear serious about trading slugger Manny Ramirez and are talking to the Phillies and two other teams about a deal, according to people familiar with the talks.

It isn't yet known what players would be going back to Boston, but left fielder Pat Burrell is having a similar year statistically (.277/.400/.585 with 26 HRs and 61 RBIs in 103 games for Burrell; .304/.400/.538 with 20 HRs and 68 RBIs in 98 games for Ramirez) and could be a logical fit. He has a no-trade clause but has told the Phillies in the past that he'd be willing to waive it for the Red Sox and Yankees.

It is also believed that the Dodgers and the Marlins are the other teams involved in the Ramirez Sweepstakes. The Marlins appear to be a longshot.

While no deal involving Ramirez has been consummated, it appears to be gaining steam.

SchillingIsTheNatural

07-29-2008, 08:54 PM

The Florida Marlins???

trade Manny Ramirez for Hanley Ramirez

a700hitter

07-29-2008, 08:57 PM

ManRam for HanRam. Great headline

ORS

07-29-2008, 09:03 PM

I apologize for wanting to win this year.
I do too, and I like our chances with Kemp as much as I do with Manny. Over the course of 108 games, he trails Manny by 0.5 wins by WARP1. And he's doing it in other ways, such as on the basepaths and with his glove, that I think have increased value in the postseason.

Doesn't matter anyway. From the sound of things, the Dodgers aren't going to trade him.

riverside sluggers

07-29-2008, 11:08 PM

I heard on my way home from work, WEEI, Sports Illustrated is reporting that the Phillies have the best chances to pull off a trade. Pat Burrell is the top candidate to go Boston's way. he has a no trade clause but has said before he would waive it to go to Boston or New York.

SchillingIsTheNatural

07-30-2008, 06:17 AM

ORS

07-30-2008, 07:11 AM

Why not? He's been more productive than Manny with the bat over the last 1.5 seasons. Despite playing in the Philly bandbox he's got no career home/road split. Yeah, he's a pretty poor defensive LF, but there's only one MLB LF'er who's worse. I'll give you one guess who that is.

TheKilo

07-30-2008, 07:54 AM

I'd love to see Burrell on this team. Get Marson, too - even if you have to give up Bowden.

Anuj09

07-30-2008, 11:06 AM

from mlbtraderumors.com
8:24am: Late last night, Will Carroll of Baseball Prospectus had an interesting rumor:

One good source told me that he had heard that the Marlins were involved, willing to give up Jeremy Hermida and Boston-area product Jeff Allison, but I couldn't confirm this. I just don't see this deal getting done.

schillingouttheks

07-30-2008, 11:37 AM

mlbtraderumors sucks.

Anuj09

07-30-2008, 11:53 AM

it does but its still fun to read when your bored at work

yeszir

07-30-2008, 11:55 AM

it does but its still fun to read when your bored at work

That's what the Talksox arcade is for!

TheKilo

07-30-2008, 12:38 PM

Remy on WEEI -

"He was happy, fun, i don't know what happened but it's a totally different guy... I saw him yesterday, he asked me if he was traded, I said you got two more days and you don't want to really go.... he said yes I do, I want to find peace."

BoSox21

07-30-2008, 01:05 PM

and by peace, he means he wants to go to a place where he can shove down travelling secretaries, fake injuries and slap teammates without the media and fans knowing or caring

yeszir

07-30-2008, 01:52 PM

and by peace, he means he wants to go to a place where he can shove down travelling secretaries, fake injuries and slap teammates without the media and fans knowing or caring

All the while pulling in 20 mil+ with no real pressure on him.

Mr Crunchy

07-30-2008, 03:00 PM

ya
pat burrell...
ohhh that put some lead in my pencil
based on remys comments and the response from ramirez we may have past the point of no return here

TheKilo

07-30-2008, 03:37 PM

Sean McAdam on WEEI:

Just spoke to someone, something could happen, they are focusing on one team right now and headway is being made. NL team. COULD HAPPEN TONIGHT.

"For now, Manny is in the lineup"

Buster Olney is reporting Manny has waived his no-trade clause.

BoSox21

07-30-2008, 03:53 PM

good, get his ass out of town ASAP

jacksonianmarch

07-30-2008, 04:27 PM

what would the point of dealing Burrell for Manny be? They are right about equal in terms of performance right now, while Burrell is younger and cheaper

CalvnHobs6

07-30-2008, 04:48 PM

-The Marlins may be about to make a huge splash, as they seem to be the team in most serious discussions about disgruntled Boston outfielder Manny Ramirez. The deal would be for outfielder Jeremy Hermida and prospects, and would certainly strengthen the one-dimensional Marlins offense for the stretch run. But apparently the fact that Florida and Philadelphia have pursued Ramirez isn't enough to prod Mets ownership into signing off on the run Omar Minaya would like to make at him.

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 04:51 PM

Trading Manny for anything other than top prospects simply isn't worth it.

User Name

07-30-2008, 05:02 PM

Bullshit. If that's the type of trade we're making, we're getting ripped off. I just want to keep Manny. :angry:

The only one on the Marlins I'd trade Manny for is Hanley.

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 05:07 PM

Bullshit. If that's the type of trade we're making, we're getting ripped off. I just want to keep Manny. :angry:

The only one on the Marlins I'd trade Manny for is Hanley.

We'll have to call the mob in for help on that one. ;)

But yes, trading Manny anyway is a bad idea.

SchillingIsTheNatural

07-30-2008, 05:13 PM

Bullshit. If that's the type of trade we're making, we're getting ripped off. I just want to keep Manny. :angry:

The only one on the Marlins I'd trade Manny for is Hanley.

I still believe the idea is to trade Manny for Hermida then turn around and swing Hermida with another prospect for a bat to replace Manny. Thats a lot they need to make happen in a short span....not to mention they are looking for a reliever.

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 05:15 PM

I still believe the idea is to trade Manny for Hermida then turn around and swing Hermida with another prospect for a bat to replace Manny. Thats a lot they need to make happen in a short span....not to mention they are looking for a reliever.

not enough time now for that entire thing to happen, realistically.

Gom

07-30-2008, 05:21 PM

I think there is zero chance Manny passes through irrevocable waivers. If I'm the Yankees, if they put him on IW, I claim him in a heartbeat. It's worth nearly every team to put in a claim, you get the rest of the salary but two draft picks. As for regular waivers, I'm not sure.

ORS

07-30-2008, 05:21 PM

what would the point of dealing Burrell for Manny be? They are right about equal in terms of performance right now, while Burrell is younger and cheaper
Not if the Sox are kicking in $, which is what they are reportedly willing to do here.

Burrell's a FA this year too, so it really would be a non-move on the field. My in-laws live up that way, and my father in-law tells me Burrell is not a fan favorite. Call it the JD Drew syndrome, but he's viewed as too dispassionate. With negligible net change on the field, it could be done for PR.

Or, supposing they intend to resign Burrell, they let him go, get the picks for Manny, sign Burrell and lose their 1, but they net a 1s.

While I agree that it's not likely to happen, finding a reason isn't particularly difficult.

ORS

07-30-2008, 05:23 PM

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 05:31 PM

Not if the Sox are kicking in $, which is what they are reportedly willing to do here.

Burrell's a FA this year too, so it really would be a non-move on the field. My in-laws live up that way, and my father in-law tells me Burrell is not a fan favorite. Call it the JD Drew syndrome, but he's viewed as too dispassionate. With negligible net change on the field, it could be done for PR.

Or, supposing they intend to resign Burrell, they let him go, get the picks for Manny, sign Burrell and lose their 1, but they net a 1s.

While I agree that it's not likely to happen, finding a reason isn't particularly difficult.

If Theo is dumb enough to trade Manny, we should at least try and get some quality prospects in return, or abandon the idea altogether. I don't want to trade for a LF who I think is far inferior to Manny (despite what the cold hard stats show over the past year and a half), who also has an expiring contract, and have to bank on signing a Matt Holliday in the offseason.

ORS

07-30-2008, 05:38 PM

If Theo is dumb enough to trade Manny, we should at least try and get some quality prospects in return, or abandon the idea altogether. I don't want to trade for a LF who I think is far inferior to Manny (despite what the cold hard stats show over the past year and a half), who also has an expiring contract, and have to bank on signing a Matt Holliday in the offseason.
Yeah, I saw your earlier response about getting top prospects and then the subsequent one about not wanting Hermida. Hermida was a top 5 prospect going into his rookie year. Don't know who you have in mind, but just arbitrarily throwing "top" out there means little to us because, for all we know, I mean you did just join today, you could be talking about a guy who spins around in circles real fast.

As for comparison's to Burrell, can you let us know just what it is you see that has escaped the many different stats that say something different?

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 05:43 PM

Yeah, I saw your earlier response about getting top prospects and then the subsequent one about not wanting Hermida. Hermida was a top 5 prospect going into his rookie year. Don't know who you have in mind, but just arbitrarily throwing "top" out there means little to us because, for all we know, I mean you did just join today, you could be talking about a guy who spins around in circles real fast.

I never said I didn't want Hermida. I just posted my isolated opinion that if we deal Manny, we need to get our money's worth in return.

As for comparison's to Burrell, can you let us know just what it is you see that has escaped the many different stats that say something different?

It was said Burrell has production equal to Manny over the past year and a half I think? Well Manny was hurt a big chunk of 2007 so I think that's moot. Plus the idea is protecting Ortiz, and Burrell won't do that as well as Manny, for the simple reason that its a mental thing with pitchers and the Ortiz/Ramirez combo. If you're a pitcher on the mound debating whether to pitch around Papi, who scares you more when you look toward the on-deck circle; Manny, or Burrell?

Gom

07-30-2008, 05:47 PM

What makes you think he'd go on irrevocable waivers?
I didn't. Just that I was sure he wouldn't be. Ok, let's play armchair GM.

He's not traded before the deadline.
You'll obviously put him on waivers.

Yankee fans: Do you claim him?
Red Sox fans: Do you let him go or do you pull him back?

If I'm the Yankees FO, I claim him...maybe. If you don't claim him, and no one claims him, the Sox deal him, which most likely is in the Yankees short term gain. If you do claim him, the Sox will most likely pull him off waivers and that's actually against our team's best interest.

Must say, kinda interesting.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 06:02 PM

Ok, since it now seems like Manny is either going to the Marlins or staying here, i think we should be looking at Hermida and another top prospect (Ryan Tucker or Matt Dominguez?) and Jeff Allison. I dont see anything happening here though.

CalvnHobs6

07-30-2008, 06:03 PM

Maybe this deal is closer than we think? Per mlbtraderumors...

Baseball Prospectus' John Perrotto has multiple baseball sources saying the Red Sox are on the verge of sending Ramirez to Florida for three players, including outfielder Mike Stanton.

Here's the original quote:

Multipe baseball sources say the Red Sox are on the verge of sending disgrunted left fielder Manny Ramirez to the Marlins in a trade for a package of three players that included low Class A Greensboro outfielder Mike Stanton, an 18-year-old who is hitting .275/.351/.569 with 26 home runs in 96 games.

Anuj09

07-30-2008, 06:05 PM

When i first saw Mike Stanton i was like WTF hes old as hell! then i realized it said outfielder haha.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 06:07 PM

Mike Stanton better not be the best person we get in return

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 06:08 PM

When i first saw Mike Stanton i was like WTF hes old as hell! then i realized it said outfielder haha.

LOL me too.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 06:11 PM

Hermida, Stanton and Allison i'm guessing?

ORS

07-30-2008, 06:12 PM

It was said Burrell has production equal to Manny over the past year and a half I think? Well Manny was hurt a big chunk of 2007 so I think that's moot. Plus the idea is protecting Ortiz, and Burrell won't do that as well as Manny, for the simple reason that its a mental thing with pitchers and the Ortiz/Ramirez combo. If you're a pitcher on the mound debating whether to pitch around Papi, who scares you more when you look toward the on-deck circle; Manny, or Burrell?
Despite his better health this year, he's still worse than Burrell, according to the stats.

Look, pitcher's are careful with Ortiz regardless of who is behind him. Ortiz was the better hitter the last two years, his production did not suffer when Manny missed time, and pitchers aren't just going to groove him one to avoid walking him simply because of who is hitting behind him. Last year, Manny missed time from 8/29 to 9/24. Did anything change?

Ortiz on 8/28: .322/.433/.577
Ortiz on 9/25: .321/.437/.600

He was better! He needs no protection. He's a great hitter because he's a great hitter.

Pat Burrell is no Manny Ramirez from '96-'06, and neither is the guy on the Sox right, but that's who I feel he's being compared to.

ORS

07-30-2008, 06:15 PM

I didn't. Just that I was sure he wouldn't be. Ok, let's play armchair GM.

He's not traded before the deadline.
You'll obviously put him on waivers.

Yankee fans: Do you claim him?
Red Sox fans: Do you let him go or do you pull him back?

If I'm the Yankees FO, I claim him...maybe. If you don't claim him, and no one claims him, the Sox deal him, which most likely is in the Yankees short term gain. If you do claim him, the Sox will most likely pull him off waivers and that's actually against our team's best interest.

Must say, kinda interesting.
Now you are talking about regular waivers.

Irrevocable waivers, what he was placed on in the '03 offseason, is when the team can't recall him if someone claims him. Irrevocable = can't revoke. This is not what they refer to when they talk about waivers and trades after the deadline.

Gom

07-30-2008, 06:16 PM

Please be true.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 06:19 PM

Stanton to me looks like a better version of Willy Mo

Willy Mo's A stats=.264, .327, .485, .812 with 26 HR and a 5.36 K/BB ratio in 510 AB's
Stantons A stats=.275, .351, .569, .920 with 26 HR and a 3.64 K/BB ratio in 360 AB's

both at the same age

Gom

07-30-2008, 06:20 PM

Now you are talking about regular waivers.

Irrevocable waivers, what he was placed on in the '03 offseason, is when the team can't recall him if someone claims him. Irrevocable = can't revoke. This is not what they refer to when they talk about waivers and trades after the deadline.
I know. This is assuming regular waivers. What would you do?

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 06:21 PM

The Red Sox's clubhouse had a twilight zone-like feel to it in the hours leading up to Wednesday's game with the Angels. At around 5:30, the following blurb appeared on the ESPN crawl: "Red Sox engaged in serious conversation to trade Manny Ramirez to the Marlins." At literally that exact time, Ramirez walked past that television with a plate of food in his hand, but didn't see it.

About 20 minutes later, Ramirez, obviously aware, or made aware by teammates, said with light-hearted enthusiasm, "Oh yeah, Marlins. Tax free. Stay at home." Then he gave Hideki Okajima's interpreter -- Jeff Yamaguchi -- a mock hug good-bye. Yamaguchi simply smiled and shook his head.

http://trades.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/07/will_manny_go_home.html

rician blast

07-30-2008, 06:30 PM

Seems to me a previous Sox trade of an apparently disgruntled superstar worked out pretty damn well, at least in the near term, for the team.

ORS

07-30-2008, 06:30 PM

I know. This is assuming regular waivers. What would you do?
Nothing. The meat of who can help the Sox now is off the market. Like you said, they are unlikely to improve in the short-term. If you claim him, they recall him.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 06:31 PM

CalvnHobs6

07-30-2008, 06:52 PM

From a Marlins message board, the rumor is expanded to 9 players:

BoSox get:
Jason Bay
Jack Wilson
Hector Correa

Pirates get:
Jeremy Hermida
Jed Lowrie
Hunter Jones
Jai Miller

Marlins get:
Manny Ramirez
John Grabow
6M in cash

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 06:55 PM

From a Marlins message board, the rumor is expanded to 9 players:

F NO to that trade NO WAY IN HELL do i make that deal.

Lowries better than Wilson as it is and Correa isnt a great prospect at all.

So its pretty much Manny and Lowrie for Bay and Jack Wilson. Theo should be massacred if this deal really happens

example1

07-30-2008, 06:58 PM

Jason Bay to the Sox in a three way deal?

http://trades.mlblogs.com/archives/2008/07/manny_in_threeway_deal_that_in.html

Under this scenario, Ramirez would go to the Marlins, while Jeremy Hermida would go to the Pirates, and Jason Bay would go to the Red Sox

That's much more what I'm talking about. Let Manny go, throw in a prospect or two to make the deal work, sign Bay to a multi-year deal next year. :dunno:

BigPapiEnFuego

07-30-2008, 06:59 PM

Jack Wilson? GTFO

example1

07-30-2008, 07:02 PM

From a Marlins message board, the rumor is expanded to 9 players:

What does Jack Wilson offer this team?

Does anyone know how Bay is in the field?

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 07:05 PM

example1

07-30-2008, 07:12 PM

Take out Wilson and Lowrie in that deal, and then maybe its not so bad. Im not a big Jason Bay fan. Im still worried about his horrendus numbers that he put up last year.

Im pretty sure Bay is above average in the field, but not positive. He has better range than Manny

Bay is an adequate replacement for Manny. An outfield of Bay, Ellsbury and Drew would be pretty solid, he is RH so that helps.

Just for shits and giggles so I can see it on "paper":

Pedroia
Youkilis
Bay
Ortiz
Lowell
Drew
Varitek
Lowrie
Ellsbury

Does that lineup make sense? Protect Bay with Ortiz, or keep Ortiz at 3? Again, shitting and giggling at the same time.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 07:26 PM

from Jayson Stark

Officials from teams around the sport are beginning to hear details about the structure of the Manny Ramirez deal. According to one of them, the three players the Red Sox are seeking from the Marlins for Ramirez are Jeremy Hermida, pitcher Ryan Tucker and big-time outfield prospect Mike Stanton. However, the two sides also have discussed substituting Josh Willingham for Hermida.

BigPapiEnFuego

07-30-2008, 07:30 PM

i wish this would happen already i cant go on much longer just waiting. But honestly i dont want manny traded but damnit if something is going to happen happen now please lol

example1

07-30-2008, 07:36 PM

i wish this would happen already i cant go on much longer just waiting. But honestly i dont want manny traded but damnit if something is going to happen happen now please lol

The Red Sox don't 'deserve' a player like Manny though, remember? He deserves 20m a year, but they don't deserve him. Fuck him. Get Bay and a prospect if you can and be done with him.

a700hitter

07-30-2008, 07:39 PM

Will he stop acting out and will all of this die down if the trading deadline passes and he is stiill with the Red Sox? A few years ago, he was saying that they got to get me out of here and then the dealine passed and he Pinch Hit and everything calmed down.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 07:39 PM

"The Red Sox don't deserve a player like me," Ramirez said. "During my years here I've seen how they [the Red Sox] have mistreated other great players when they didn't want them to try to turn the fans against them.

"The Red Sox did the same with guys like Nomar Garciaparra and Pedro Martinez, and now they do the same with me. Their goal is to paint me as the bad guy. I love Boston fans, but the Red Sox don't deserve me. I'm not talking about money. Mental peace has no price and I don't have peace here."

if we dont get rid of Manny by tommorow, he's gonna end up asking to be put on the DL with a knee injury

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 07:44 PM

from Will Carroll

I’m hearing that a multi-team deal involving Jason Bay and the Florida Marlins is in the “final stages.” This could involve the previously in-place dealings involving Manny Ramirez as reported by our own John Perrotto. Joe Frisaro of MLB.com thinks that Bay could end up in Boston, Jeremy Hermida in Pittsburgh, and prospects flying every which way. My sources agree, though I will update as details become clearer.

example1

07-30-2008, 07:45 PM

Manny is a boyfriend who knows he is going to get dumped and is trying to tell people that he's the better person for it. He's got every defensive mechanism working for him right now and, frankly, I find it kind of sad and pathetic if the Manny era ends this way.

To say that he's seen other players like Nomar and Pedro disrespected for not being resigned, who then went on to suck balls, shows me he is just doing everything he can to hurt the FO's feelings (probably to little effect) and to make the fans turn against Manny.

Look Manny, I'll say it again, you make $40,000 per AT BAT. You bitch and moan like someone who has never had to work hard a day in your life. You jog to 1st, getting nearly $450 per FOOT traveled. I loved you for years but go F yourself buddy.

Manny will enter the HOF with a big "C" on his hat, no doubt.

BoSox34

07-30-2008, 07:47 PM

Wow, this is more serious than I realized. I'd personally rather go with the Marlins' prospects than Bay.

BigPapiEnFuego

07-30-2008, 07:47 PM

I don't like what he said, but I agree to en extent. Boston never really treated players with respect on their way out.

SchillingIsTheNatural

07-30-2008, 07:51 PM

I'd rather have Jeremy Hermida than Jason Bay. If Colorado wants to get in on a 3 team deal including Matt Holliday then I'll be real happy.

example1

07-30-2008, 07:51 PM

Players like Nomar, who pouted on the bench while the team played extra-inning games against the Yankees down the stretch?

These players will not feel respected unless they're given the money they are demanding.

example1

07-30-2008, 07:56 PM

I'd rather have Jeremy Hermida than Jason Bay. If Colorado wants to get in on a 3 team deal including Matt Holliday then I'll be real happy.

I like Bay's OBP and OPS better than Hermida. Isn't Hermida injured regularly too?

BigPapiEnFuego

07-30-2008, 08:16 PM

By Buster Olney

Wednesday, July 30, 2008

As the Red Sox, Marlins and Pirates discuss a possible three-way deal for Manny Ramirez, the sides are also discussing lefty reliever John Grabow moving from Pittsburgh to the Red Sox. The current sticking point, according to a well-placed source, is that the Marlins want the Red Sox to add a prospect to their take in the deal.

finally a reliever might be involed. we need one.

schillingouttheks

07-30-2008, 08:17 PM

The Marlins want the Red Sox to add a prospect on top of Manny? Fuck that shit.

SchillingIsTheNatural

07-30-2008, 08:20 PM

The Marlins want the Red Sox to add a prospect on top of Manny? Fuck that shit.

Depends who it is...if they are getting Mike Stanton and Ryan Tucker and losing a low level prospect...who cares?

jacksonianmarch

07-30-2008, 08:26 PM

Dealing Hermida and 2 of their top 5 prospects for a 2 month rental is a steep price, no matter who that player is. That being said, if they get Grabow and Hermida, they will take a serious hit to the offense, but the pen may be stabilized. It might be a better deal than anyone could have imagined. I am just unsure how good Grabow is gonna be as a setup man. He gives up his fair share of taters and righties seem to hit him pretty well for a setup man.

das11209

07-30-2008, 08:26 PM

Depends who it is...if they are getting Mike Stanton and Ryan Tucker and losing a low level prospect...who cares?

Throw in Hansen with Manny.

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 08:30 PM

Manny for Bay? Fuck off.

schillingouttheks

07-30-2008, 08:32 PM

Depends who it is...if they are getting Mike Stanton and Ryan Tucker and losing a low level prospect...who cares?

Manny Ramirez himself is enough. We're talking about one of the best RHH baseball has seen in quite some time.

Then again, I'm just so fucking irritated with so many aspects of this team right now that my judgment is pretty clouded as it is.

Jayhawk Bill

07-30-2008, 08:35 PM

Mike Stanton's MLE for his 2008 MiLB stats, per BP, extended to 600 AB:

.230/.294/.466, 36 HR, 85 RBI

Peak value, again based upon 600 AB:

.298/.397/.623, 49 HR, 114 RBI

BP translations are pretty conservative...that's really impressive.

I'd consider Manny for Mike Stanton, straight up. YMMV

SchillingIsTheNatural

07-30-2008, 08:36 PM

Manny Ramirez himself is enough. We're talking about one of the best RHH baseball has seen in quite some time.

Be that as it may he is 36 years old and a pain in the ass. Not to mention any team will have him for 2 months before he signs with the Yankees to be a DH.

jacksonianmarch

07-30-2008, 08:36 PM

Manny for Bay? Fuck off.

If the sox somehow dealt away Manny and they got Bay without having to give up anything else, then the sox would be fucking ecstatic.

example1

07-30-2008, 08:38 PM

Manny for Bay? Fuck off.

What does this even mean?

jacksonianmarch

07-30-2008, 08:41 PM

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 08:42 PM

If the sox somehow dealt away Manny and they got Bay without having to give up anything else, then the sox would be fucking ecstatic.

They shouldn't be.

What does this even mean?

It means bad trade.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 08:43 PM

right now it looks like

To BOS: Bay, Grabow
To FLA: Manny
To PIT: Hermida, Hunter Jones, prospect from FLA

with Jed Lowrie and Jack Wilson also being included possibly, hopefully not

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 08:45 PM

right now it looks like

To BOS: Bay, Grabow
To FLA: Manny
To PIT: Hermida, Hunter Jones, prospect from FLA

with Jed Lowrie and Jack Wilson also being included possibly, hopefully not
We sub out Manny for Jason Bay, and trade away Jed Lowrie on top of that? WTF happened to this world? I really hope that's not true.

SchillingIsTheNatural

07-30-2008, 08:48 PM

I can't imagine Jed Lowrie is added into the deal...especially for Jack Wilson

yeszir

07-30-2008, 08:48 PM

We sub out Manny for Jason Bay, and trade away Jed Lowrie on top of that? WTF happened to this world? Hopefully its not true.

Have you seen Manny's poisoning the well interview before the game today? He said that the Red Sox don't deserve a player like Manny Ramirez. He's turned into a pompous prick, more so than usual, and the Red Sox stand to benefit from trading him for Bay.

Something needs to be done to kick them in their asses.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 08:53 PM

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 08:53 PM

Have you seen Manny's poisoning the well interview before the game today? He said that the Red Sox don't deserve a player like Manny Ramirez. He's turned into a pompous prick, more so than usual, and the Red Sox stand to benefit from trading him for Bay.

I didn't see any interviews but I read about what he said. Yes he is a pompous prick right now, but he produces. If Manny ends up staying past the deadline, it'll be just like 2005 when he wasn't traded, then late in the game against Minny he got a clutch pinch-hit, everything was fine, and he had an incredible finish to the year. There's nothing to gain by trading him for Bay.

Jayhawk Bill

07-30-2008, 08:54 PM

Bay's batting line vs. AL, 2008: .302/.345/.547 :)

Bay's batting line vs. AL, career: .250/.312/.450 :(

yeszir

07-30-2008, 08:55 PM

I didn't see any interviews but I read about what he said. Yes he is a pompous prick right now, but he produces. If Manny ends up staying past the deadline, it'll be just like 2005 when he wasn't traded, then late in the game against Minny he got a clutch pinch-hit, everything was fine, and he had an incredible finish to the year. There's nothing to gain by trading him for Bay.

And the Red Sox finished second and were swept by the White Sox in the first round ;)

Jayhawk Bill

07-30-2008, 08:56 PM

Some Pittsburg paper says this is the deal as of right now

To BOS: Bay, J Wilson
To FLA: Manny, Grabow
To PIT: Hermida, Lowrie, Hunter Jones, Ryan Tucker

the Bucs and marlins win that trade and the Sox get shit on, im all for dealing Manny, but dont include Lowrie in the deal

"Some Pittsburg paper" is the Beaver County Times, and it's John Perotto writing. He's a credible sportswriter.

I wouldn't make that trade. :thumbdown

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 08:57 PM

And the Red Sox finished second and were swept by the White Sox in the first round ;)

At no fault of Manny's. We have a far better team this year than that year if we keep things relatively intact.

SchillingIsTheNatural

07-30-2008, 08:58 PM

Will Carroll says a deal has been agreed to between the Red Sox, Marlins, and Pirates but no details officially

yeszir

07-30-2008, 08:58 PM

Will Carroll says a deal has been agreed to between the Red Sox, Marlins, and Pirates but no details officially

I'll believe it when I see it.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 09:00 PM

Will Carroll says a deal has been agreed to between the Red Sox, Marlins, and Pirates but no details officially

Marlins get Manny Ramirez, one prospect (BOS), and cash (likely Ramirez’s remaining salary)
Pirates get Jeremy Hermida and three prospects (two FLO, one BOS)
Red Sox get Jason Bay and John Grabow

Im guessing Hunter Jones is the one going to PIT and no idea who is going to FLA

BigPapiEnFuego

07-30-2008, 09:01 PM

THose prospects better not be great ones we give up.

SchillingIsTheNatural

07-30-2008, 09:01 PM

I'll believe it when I see it.

I agree especially since it's coming from Will Carroll...but at this point I'm thinking Aubrey Huff and Mike Cameron are coming to Boston

BigPapiEnFuego

07-30-2008, 09:04 PM

By Peter Gammons

Wednesday, July 30, 2008

The Manny Ramirez trade conversations are expected to continue into Thursday, according to a source. Because it's a very complicated deal, involving a player who has the right to veto the trade and other parts, it is still unlikely to happen. But the negotiations will go on.

Ok, What?

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 09:07 PM

who knows, yesterday at about 3:30, most of these "insiders" said that the Angels had dropped out of the Teixera bidding and he was going to go to Arizona

BoSox21

07-30-2008, 09:20 PM

get this prick the fuck out of town as soon as possible

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 09:20 PM

get this prick the fuck out of town as soon as possible
for just anything?

BoSox21

07-30-2008, 09:22 PM

for just anything?

at this point, yes. considering the lack of respect he's shown the team I love this season, it makes me sick to my stomach to continue to see him in the uniform

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 09:22 PM

for just anything?

i hate to say it, but its probably the best thing for everyone involved. Hes a cancer, just like Nomar was in '04, he needs to go. and especially after everything hes said, ya he needs to go for anything

and jason bay isnt just "anything"

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 09:26 PM

yeszir

07-30-2008, 09:28 PM

I'm torn between trading him and picking up both years of his options just to spite the guy.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 09:28 PM

theres a very good chance that if we keep Manny, hes gonna be on the DL in a couple weeks with a knee injury, so id rather have Bay in the lineup then Crisp for that time.

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 09:29 PM

I'm torn between trading him and picking up both years of his options just to spite the guy.

Nah, its not worth it to spite him. Just keep him, don't pick up the option, and enjoy the draft picks.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 09:30 PM

I'll have to strongly disagree with both of you. I'm of the opinion that production overrides everything, and that Manny is just going through of his trademarked goofy stretches. Either hang on to him, or trade him for a superstar-in-the-making. Jason Bay is a downgrade IMO, and we can't afford to downgrade when the Yankees have already made three moves for the better and the Rays aren't going anywhere.

C-H-E-M-I-S-T-R-Y

When the Sox traded Nomar for O Cabrera, who was having the more productive season? And Nomar was coming off on one of his most productive seasons in '03, and there wasnt much show of him declining rapidly

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 09:32 PM

C-H-E-M-I-S-T-R-Y

When the Sox traded Nomar for O Cabrera, who was having the more productive season? And Nomar was coming off on one of his most productive seasons in '03, and there wasnt much show of him declining rapidly
Wasn't Nomar injured almost the whole year up to that point?

a700hitter

07-30-2008, 09:34 PM

Wasn't Nomar injured almost the whole year up to that point?He was injured and he didn't have 20 HRs and almost 70 RBI at the deadline.

BoSox21

07-30-2008, 09:35 PM

in the past few days, he's said he's both sick of them and that they don't deserve a player like him. how the hell do you keep a guy on the roster who's shown your team such disrespect?

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 09:35 PM

He was injured and he didn't have 20 HRs and almost 70 RBI at the deadline.

nevermind

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 09:35 PM

he was on the DL for a while but look at the stats between the 2 before that trade

Nomar pre-trade: .321, .367, .500, 5 HR in 156 AB
O-Cab pre-trade: .246, .298, .336, 4 HR in 390 AB

that trade wasnt because of production

Manny is causing so many distractions and he just keeps shitting on the Sox, he needs to go

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 09:36 PM

yeszir

07-30-2008, 09:39 PM

Manny is causing so many distractions and he just keeps shitting on the Sox, he needs to go

What pisses me off the most though is that he knows what he's doing and that he will probably end up getting what he wants.

In a 0 pressure place like Florida (despite their playoff run) Manny will thrive.

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 09:39 PM

in the past few days, he's said he's both sick of them and that they don't deserve a player like him. how the hell do you keep a guy on the roster who's shown your team such disrespect?

Stuff like this has happened in sports before. Look at Chad Johnson with the Bengals this past NFL offseason. He trashed them the entire offseason, saying he'd never put that uniform on again, and look who's camp he's in right now. One simple kiss-and-make-up, and everything will be forgotten. Manny himself will probably be laughing about this next Monday if we hang onto him.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 09:43 PM

To be fair though, O-dog was a lot better defensive SS than Nomar.

Bay's better defensively than Manny

Manny: .299, .397, .531, .926 with 20 HR (37 years old)
Bay: .284, .377, .523, .900 with 22 HR (29 years old)

so even excluding all of Mannys other problems, its still not a huge downgrade offensively. And we get a good bullpen arm in Grabow.

BoSox21

07-30-2008, 09:45 PM

Stuff like this has happened in sports before. Look at Chad Johnson with the Bengals this past NFL offseason. He trashed them the entire offseason, saying he'd never put that uniform on again, and look who's camp he's in right now. One simple kiss-and-make-up, and everything will be forgotten. Manny himself will probably be laughing about this next Monday if we hang onto him.

does Chad Johnson attack team officials, fake injuries and slack off on the field?

a700hitter

07-30-2008, 09:46 PM

The problem with trading Manny is that Theo is a Menage a trois guy. He can never just make a two team trade. He always is working on three and four team scenarios. It is hard enough to get two teams to agree on the money, players and prospects. It's much more difficult to tie down a three team deal.

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 09:47 PM

Bay's better defensively than Manny

At Fenway Park, Manny's a pretty decent LF (wall effect).

so even excluding all of Mannys other problems, its still not a huge downgrade offensively. And we get a good bullpen arm in Grabow.

Not a huge downgrade, but a downgrade in my opinion, regardless of this year's numbers. I still hold that Manny's just being melodramatic and after D-day tomorrow he'll just return to being the goofy S.O.B. that most of us love.

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 09:49 PM

does Chad Johnson attack team officials, fake injuries and slack off on the field?

No for the first one, and its hard to tell with the latter two since his antics took place during the offseason, and there is no bad blood now.

BoSox21

07-30-2008, 09:49 PM

anyway, I pray that when I wake up tomorrow, ill see that this bastard has been traded, although probably not

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 09:50 PM

anyway, I pray that when I wake up tomorrow, ill see that this bastard has been traded, although probably not

I pray that you're disappointed at said point. ;) :harhar:

It would mean that one of my all-time fav Sox is still here.

a700hitter

07-30-2008, 09:52 PM

Bay's better defensively than Manny

Manny: .299, .397, .531, .926 with 20 HR (37 years old)
Bay: .284, .377, .523, .900 with 22 HR (29 years old)

so even excluding all of Mannys other problems, its still not a huge downgrade offensively. And we get a good bullpen arm in Grabow.Bay strikes out 140-150 times every year. He is not even close at this age to the aging Manny. We will hate this guy within a month.

8191

07-30-2008, 09:53 PM

manny hansen and lowery for hanley is about the only traid I'd make w/ Fla

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 09:54 PM

Bay strikes out 140-150 times every year. He is not even close at this age to the aging Manny. We will hate this guy within a month.

:thumbsup: thank you

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 09:55 PM

Bay strikes out 140-150 times every year. He is not even close at this age to the aging Manny. We will hate this guy within a month.

Manny has 86 K's in 363 ABs this year
Bay has 86 K's in in 384 AB's this year and also has more BB's

a700hitter

07-30-2008, 09:56 PM

Why would we want Grabow? He's an average NL bullpen guy in a low pressure town. 4.35 career ERA.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/grabojo02.shtml

Rdsxmbnt

07-30-2008, 09:57 PM

manny hansen and lowery for hanley is about the only traid I'd make w/ Fla

...who are you?

a700hitter

07-30-2008, 10:00 PM

Manny has 86 K's in 363 ABs this year
Bay has 86 K's in in 384 AB's this year and also has more BB'sThat is this year. Have you checked the rest of their careers?

The Dustball

07-30-2008, 10:01 PM

DON'T DO IT THEO, PAPI WILL BE SAD AND WILL SUCK.

:rolleyes:

I'm pretty torn right now. While these comments seem pretty harsh, I don't think that if Manny stays that he will go out of his way to screw the Sox. He's fighting for a new contract, why would he do anything to reduce his value? I don't want him to go, yet he's getting older and Bay is a much cheaper and younger alternative. It's a tough situation.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 10:02 PM

That is this year. Have you checked the rest of their careers?

Yes I know, Manny averaged about 110-120 K's a year where Bay is about 140-150. Im in agreement that Manny is the superior player, but based on what he's done this year on and off the field, I think moving him for Bay is worth it. Manny is only going to get worse from here on out and Bay still has a lot of time left in his career.

a700hitter

07-30-2008, 10:07 PM

Yes I know, Manny averaged about 110-120 K's a year where Bay is about 140-150. Im in agreement that Manny is the superior player, but based on what he's done this year on and off the field, I think moving him for Bay is worth it. Manny is only going to get worse from here on out and Bay still has a lot of time left in his career.
Why would we want Bay long term? He's not that good.

soxfan17881

07-30-2008, 10:08 PM

You have to admit, it was funny, after you got over your initial feeling of wanting to kill me.

I never get over that feeling.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 10:12 PM

Why would we want Bay long term? He's not that good.

Hes not great but he still has a career OPS of .892 (including his offyear last year) and is only 29

And maybe you dont sign him to an extension and make a run at Holliday

all im saying is that i would make the deal, like theo made the deal back in '04

soxfan17881

07-30-2008, 10:14 PM

right now it looks like

To BOS: Bay, Grabow
To FLA: Manny
To PIT: Hermida, Hunter Jones, prospect from FLA

with Jed Lowrie and Jack Wilson also being included possibly, hopefully not

This is insanity.

Am I missing something? We're going to trade to get an average LF and a pitcher with a 4.35 career ERA?

I'm in the twilight zone.

yeszir

07-30-2008, 10:17 PM

For old time's sake:
http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/682-nomar-cubs.html
http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/681-official-trade-deadline-thread.html

Some grumblings, but it worked out. I see some overlap if a Manny deal gets done.

edit: Reading those threads makes me sad that Zenny and elsrbueno disappeared

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 10:19 PM

This is insanity.

Am I missing something? We're going to trade to get an average LF and a pitcher with a 4.35 career ERA?

I'm in the twilight zone.

now the deal looks like this, i believe

Marlins-- Manny Ramirez, BOS prospect and cash
Pirates-- Jeremy Hermida, Ryan Tucker, Hunter Jones and another prospect from FLA
Red Sox-- Jason Bay and John Grabow

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 10:27 PM

according to Jayson Stark, the Rays are now looking at Adam Dunn since they dont think Bay is available

so im guessing the Rays heard this Manny deal is legit and going to happen

a700hitter

07-30-2008, 10:29 PM

Hes not great but he still has a career OPS of .892 (including his offyear last year) and is only 29

And maybe you dont sign him to an extension and make a run at Holliday

all im saying is that i would make the deal, like theo made the deal back in '04
In '04, an unproductive injured player was traded, and the guys we received in return upgraded the defense. OCab and Minky were Gold Glovers and Dave Roberts brought the element of speed. He got thrown out 1 time in over 30 attempts up to that point. Where would the upgrades be here? Bay is a downgrade and Grabow is an average bullpen guy.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 10:30 PM

From Peter Gammons:

As midnight approached Wednesday night on the East Coast, officials from the Marlins and Red Sox said a deal involving Manny Ramirez was not done. Indications from Pittsburgh were that the Pirates were not satisfied with the players they were receiving in exchange for sending Jason Bay to Boston. And in California, Ramirez's agent, Scott Boras, said he had been told nothing, which means nothing has been completed in terms of Ramirez's waving his no-trade rights or in completing paperwork to send to the commissioner's office.

So, the complicated three-way deal might go down close to Thursday's 4 p.m. ET deadline. Ramirez wants out, and is willing to go to Florida. The Marlins want him -- and what he means to their pennant chances and pursuit of a new ballpark. The Red Sox clearly are willing to finance Ramirez's exit.

But the value of the young players was a sticking point late into the night, and one Red Sox official said, "This is anything but done."

The Nomar Garciaparra deal in 2004 went down to minutes before the deadline, and there was so much confusion the Twins never received the second prospect they thought they were owed. This might be Nomar Redux.

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 10:32 PM

16 hours to go...

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 10:33 PM

if Manny is still here as of tomorow, i just hope and pray that he shutups up the rest of the year and busts his ass. not asking alot, just that. not hard to do manny.

up untill a couple days ago, Manny was my favorite player on the Sox. But he has just gotten out of control. So manny just shutup if nothing happens tomorow and play your last 2 months with the Sox.

ALSO, it would be nice if the media would just leave Manny alone for 2 moths to, instead of always shitting on him.

Coco's Disciples

07-30-2008, 10:37 PM

So I guess I'm constantly checking my cell phone tomorrow at work...

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 10:38 PM

if Manny is still here as of tomorow, i just hope and pray that he shutups up the rest of the year and busts his ass. not asking alot, just that. not hard to do manny.

up untill a couple days ago, Manny was my favorite player on the Sox. But he has just gotten out of control. So manny just shutup if nothing happens tomorow and play your last 2 months with the Sox.

I don't think that will be an issue. He knows he'll be a FA at season's end, so why screw it up by deliberately poisoning the clubhouse and slacking on the field? $$$ on the line...

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 10:40 PM

I don't think that will be an issue. He knows he'll be a FA at season's end, so why screw it up by deliberately poisoning the clubhouse and slacking on the field? $$$ on the line...

but according to Manny its not about the money, its about the peace...

...watever he means by that

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 10:41 PM

holy shit, now the Palm Beach Post says that a deal has been agreed to and reached

The Marlins have reached a tentative agreement to acquire Manny Ramirez from Boston as part of a three-team deal that will send Jeremy Hermida and three Florida prospects to Pittsburgh, an American League source said Wednesday night.

Officials with the Marlins and Red Sox did not confirm the deal but the source said a tentative agreement was reached about 10 p.m. Wednesday.

The Marlins will get Ramirez for Hermida, right-hander Ryan Tucker and two other prospects, with those four players being flipped to Pittsburgh for outfielder Jason Bay and left-hander John Grabow.

The Red Sox will send the Marlins enough cash to cover the remainder of Ramirez contract, as well as an unnamed prospect.

Pittsburgh gets Hermida and two prospects - two from Florida and one from Boston. One of the Marlins' prospects is believed to be Tucker.

The Marlins were one of several teams the Red Sox had discussions with about the enigmatic outfielder.

The Red Sox were seeking a big right-handed hitter in return to protect David Ortiz in the lineup, something the Marlins could not offer. The trade with Pittsburgh met that need by bringing them Bay.

In an interview earlier Wednesday on radio station 790-AM, Marlins President David Samson did not rule out the possibility of a deal.

"We're spending all day to try to figure out a way to get better, to stay good, to try to figure out if we can win this thing,'' Samson said.

"We're trying everything," Samson went on to say. "We're looking everywhere. We are making calls, getting calls. We are not going to be stupid, though. We are not going to make a trade that hurts us in the coming years terribly. We are not going to make a trade where the cost is too much. But on the other hand you know us - we will do just about anything. So we are looking at stuff.''

Ramirez is earning $20 million this season, which is about $2 million less than the entire Marlins payroll.

Ramirez, who is represented by Scott Boras, is seeing a contract around $100 million for four years after his contract expires at season's end.

i honestly dont know what to believe anymore

Gom

07-30-2008, 10:44 PM

You know something?

I have to say this:

You Red Sox fans are ungrateful [wait...fun police knocking on my door] son of a guns. See? I censored myself.

Manny came to play. He was a WS MVP. You don't win your first championship without him. You don't get past the Indians on the way to your second championship without him. He's been worth every penny. His issues are not with the fans, but with the organization. He's been everything and more for you guys, and you boo him tonight at the game?

Sorry yeszir...but your fans are ungrateful assholes who did that. Trust me, in New York, he gets a standing ovation. Is it any wonder that the profile of stars goes from Boston to New York, and never the other way around?

As a Yankee fan, it's like seeing an old foe go. In a way, I'll be sad to see him go. He helped add to the rivalry. I'll miss the fear of seeing him at the plate wearing a Red Sox uniform. I'll miss secretly marveling at his talent when he beat us, and the relief and exhiliration when we got him out.

Good luck Manny, wherever you end up. They may not appreciate you in Boston, but we do in New York. You killed us, but we respected you for it. Good luck and godspeed.

Coco's Disciples

07-30-2008, 10:45 PM

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 10:45 PM

dammit

mtbykr

07-30-2008, 10:45 PM

Listening to WEEI the Palm Beach report actually sounds legit

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 10:46 PM

See my post in the GT. I really appreciate what Manny did.

I really appreciate what Manny did as well, and even though im ticked off at his recent shit, id be one of the first in line to thank him for everything he has done in Boston. Ill be sad to see him go, but at the same time its probally best for everyone involved to just move on seperately.

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 10:47 PM

Gom

07-30-2008, 10:48 PM

Like I said, the fans who booed him are total idiots. They should have cheered him. That would have been a big F-U to the front office, where it deserves to be directed, not at Manny.

BoSox34

07-30-2008, 10:50 PM

Lots of moving parts but a foundation for a deal seems to be in place with Manny to the Marlins, Hermida to the Pirates and Bay to the Sox. Rumors have it that the sox may be in line to get Jack Wilson as well. If so, Lowrie is being discussed and another prospect as well, since Bay is cheaper, just as good and much younger than Manny

Bay is younger and cheaper, however I do not think he is nearly the hitter that Manny is. I hope we get some good prospects out of this because if the base of the deal is just Manny for Bay, I think we're in the same place as we were yesterday, and maybe worse.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 10:50 PM

I APPRECIATED him. And I'm more pissed than I've ever been with this team now that he appears to be gone. This is messed up. We got hosed.

the more and more i think about, im really gonna miss seeing manny out there in lf from now on. i dont know why he had to be a dick this season, but thats what pisses me off the most. In a perfect world, id rather see Manny in left then Bay, but Manny just wont play here anymore. its a shame

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 10:52 PM

Bay is younger and cheaper, however I do not think he is nearly the hitter that Manny is. I hope we get some good prospects out of this because if the base of the deal is just Manny for Bay, I think we're in the same place as we were yesterday, and maybe worse.

well right now it seems like we get Bay and Grabow for Manny, Hunter Jones, another prospect and alot of cash

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 10:53 PM

the more and more i think about, im really gonna miss seeing manny out there in lf from now on. i dont know why he had to be a dick this season, but thats what pisses me off the most. In a perfect world, id rather see Manny in left then Bay, but Manny just wont play here anymore. its a shame
I don't believe that 'he wouldn't play here anymore'. If he stayed, things would have been resolved in due time. I really believe that.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 10:54 PM

I don't believe that 'he wouldn't play here anymore'. If he stayed, things would have been resolved in due time. I really believe that.

and im sure Theo and the organization wished that they could be 100% sure of that. But unfortunately, they cant and dont want anymore distractions anymore. I mean look how the teams done since these Manny wants out rumors have come up

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 10:57 PM

i wish we could get Tucker and the Pirates kept Grabow

BoSox34

07-30-2008, 11:00 PM

I wish we could get Cameron Maybin.

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 11:01 PM

I wish we could get Cameron Maybin.
Never thought of that. We should've went after him.

BigPapiEnFuego

07-30-2008, 11:02 PM

i wish it would end.

mtbykr

07-30-2008, 11:04 PM

The Palm Beach Post reported that the Sox had reached a tentative agreement with the Marlins and Pirates in which Manny Ramirez would go to Florida, the Marlins would send OF Jeremy Hermidia to Piitsburgh as part of a multiplayer package, and the Sox would receive OF Jason Bay and LHP Josh Grabow. My sources tell me that is not true, a deal has not been struck, but the sides continue to talk.It may be getting close.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/

a700hitter

07-30-2008, 11:12 PM

Nothing new there.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 11:13 PM

In an article updated at 11:50 pm EDT, SI.com's Jon Heyman says that a deal between the Marlins and Red Sox for Manny Ramirez is close and that the teams have relayed their dealings to the commissioner's office.

That goes along with what Will Carroll wrote earlier. The Red Sox will need Bud Selig's approval since they're expected to pick up the $7 million that Ramirez is still owed as part of a deal.

rotoworld

Heymans a more trustworty source then Carroll, so now im really starting to believe this thing is all but done.

riverside sluggers

07-30-2008, 11:16 PM

Holy shit, the Sox are actually closing in on a Manny trade?.

Mmm Jason Bay as a Red Sox, younger and cheaper with the Green Monster to aim for. And no "Bay moments" to get fans/media/ownership riled up

1. Pedroia 2b
2. Youkilis 1b
3. Ortiz dh
4. Bay lf
5. Lowell 3b
6. Drew rf
7. Lowrie ss
8. Varitek c
9. Ellsbury cf

castigs850

07-30-2008, 11:16 PM

i hate that the redsox manny marriage is going to end in such a mess like this. IMO the best case scenerio is that the deal doesnt go through and manny shuts up and there's a clean break after the season. Manny has been my favorite redsox for a long time, and i dont know what's gotten into him lately but it will be very upsetting to see him leave town in this fashion. Especially seeing as just a few months ago people were questioning if he will get his number retired. This is such a miserable situation.

schillingouttheks

07-30-2008, 11:16 PM

I just want this to be over. I'm getting sick of it, and apparently the team is too. When all is said and done, I want Manny in LF. He's being a huge dick throughout this process, but he belongs here. If he wants us to let him walk in the off-season, fine, but until 2008 is over, this is where he belongs. Thinking that I have seen Manny play his last game in a Red Sox uniform almost makes me sick. Bay and Grabow will not make up for the void.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 11:18 PM

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 11:21 PM

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 11:23 PM

The Red Sox want Jason Bay, but they could try to mix in a different third team. Heyman adds that the Dodgers were willing to part with Matt Kemp for Ramirez, but that those talks are on the sidelines now. Jul. 31 - 12:11 am et

why didnt we go after Kemp???? I guess the Sox still think they can win with Bay instead of Manny

castigs850

07-30-2008, 11:26 PM

the worst part for me is that i believe that Manny would cool down just as we have seen in the past. I dont know what's wrong with him, if he's just so much of a control freak that he wants to know that the sox will pick up his options or he wants to leave. Either that or maybe Borris is whispering in his ear. Either way im just 100% sick of this and i hope both sides come out with some nice statements about one another once the trade goes down, because this is too ugly to bear

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 11:28 PM

from heyman

The Red Sox have talked to other teams about Ramirez, but their talks appear to be centered on the Marlins now. People involved in the discussions say several combinations of players and teams are being discussed, but in just about all of them Ramirez would wind up with the Marlins. No deal has been agreed to yet, and it's still possible Ramirez could remain with the Red Sox, though it's now believed that the deal will be consummated close to Thursday's 4 p.m. ET non-waiver trade deadline.

There's still work to be done in the Red Sox-Marlins part of the megadeal, but one swap that's on the table would send young outfielder Jeremy Hermida, power-hitting outfield prospect Mike Stanton and hard-throwing young pitcher Ryan Tucker from Florida to Boston for Ramirez.

Id rather that, then Bay and Grabow

BoSox34

07-30-2008, 11:29 PM

Things much be a lot worse than we know between Manny and the Front Office because this deal is terrible. It really doesn't make any sense to trade Manny for a less-productive hitter who is not used to playing the Green Monster in left field and a decent reliever and expect this team to be built for this year. If we are dealing Manny, we better be getting a few great prospects because the proposed trade that is floating around does not solve our problems for now or for the future...and please don't tell me Grabow will come in and be the bullpen's savior. I have seen countless middle-late relievers with decent/good careers come into Boston and melt under the pressure. This guy will be counted on to save the bullpen and he'll need to prove himself first. This is pathetic if the trade truly is Manny (and lowrie) for Bay, Grabow (and wilson), I'll be disappointed.

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 11:30 PM

from heyman

Id rather that, then Bay and Grabow
Absolutely. The Bay/Grabow deal is a joke.

mtbykr

07-30-2008, 11:31 PM

Gammo basically saying that the deal is really close, but that the sticking poinst is the young players going to Pitt.

Unless Manram is a cancer and is really disrupting the clubhouse, then there is no deal being talked about that makes the sox a better team.......losing manram isn't an option IMO.

schillingouttheks

07-30-2008, 11:33 PM

I third the sentiment regarding the Pittsburgh package vs. that of Florida.

And Beckett95 - IIRC, the Dodgers backed out of those talks for some reason. Kemp would have been the best we could have expected in return.

BigPapiEnFuego

07-30-2008, 11:34 PM

Absolutely. The Bay/Grabow deal is a joke.

It really is. I'd rather just keep manny than get Bay, who is good, but nowhere near manny, and some lefty reliever who is just "alright" while pitching in the NL. He'd probably get wrecked in the AL. They should either keep Manny and go after Will Ohman, or trade manny for hermida and stanton and find another way to still get Ohman

mtbykr

07-30-2008, 11:36 PM

I really wonder how much of this is Boras: upset he's not getting any money off of manram right now and whispering the 4/100 nonsense in his ears.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 11:37 PM

Absolutely. The Bay/Grabow deal is a joke.

That would atleast give the Sox a pretty solid offense for the future along with the ridiculous amount of talented pitchers we have that are under 28.

C--Kottaras/Exposito
1B--Anderson
2B--Pedroia
3B--Youk/Almanzar?
SS--Lowrie
LF--Hermida
CF-Ellsbury/Lin
RF--Reddick/Kalish
DH--Stanton

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 11:38 PM

It really is. I'd rather just keep manny than get Bay, who is good, but nowhere near manny, and some lefty reliever who is just "alright" while pitching in the NL. He'd probably get wrecked in the AL. They should either keep Manny and go after Will Ohman, or trade manny for hermida and stanton and find another way to still get Ohman
I'd prefer Arthur Rhodes to Ohman.

BoSox34

07-30-2008, 11:39 PM

That would atleast give the Sox a pretty solid offense for the future.

C--Kottaras/Exposito
1B--Anderson
2B--Pedroia
3B--Almanzar?
SS--Lowrie
LF--Hermida
CF-Ellsbury/Lin
RF--Reddick/Kalish
DH--Stanton

It's so weird seeing a Red Sox lineup without Ortiz and Manny.

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 11:39 PM

That would atleast give the Sox a pretty solid offense for the future.

C--Kottaras/Exposito
1B--Anderson
2B--Pedroia
3B--Youk/Almanzar?
SS--Lowrie
LF--Hermida
CF-Ellsbury/Lin
RF--Reddick/Kalish
DH--Stanton

Damn, how far in the future are we talkin' here? Never heard of Exposito, Kalish, Reddick or Lin.

Gom

07-30-2008, 11:39 PM

I really wonder how much of this is Boras: upset he's not getting any money off of manram right now and whispering the 4/100 nonsense in his ears.

Thank you. Finally, someone here gets it. I was wondering how long it would take. It's all Boras. You deal with the devil enough, you'll get burned.

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 11:42 PM

It's so weird seeing a Red Sox lineup without Ortiz and Manny.

it is, its sucks, but its gotta happen at some point

its also weird thinking about the pats without tom brady :shock:
but its gonna happen at some point

Beckett95

07-30-2008, 11:42 PM

Damn, how far in the future are we talkin' here? Never heard of Exposito, Kalish, Reddick or Lin.

there all about 19-21 years old

http://www.soxprospects.com/ that has some info on all of them plus others

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-30-2008, 11:44 PM

it is, its sucks, but its gotta happen at some point

its also weird thinking about the pats without tom brady :shock:
but its gonna happen at some point

i'm so excited :D

26 to 6

07-30-2008, 11:46 PM

Damn, how far in the future are we talkin' here? Never heard of Exposito, Kalish, Reddick or Lin.
Lin is nasty. I'd heard of him, but not until I got to see him go deep at Yankee Stadium during the Futures Game did I realize just how legitimate of a prospect he was. Did some research after that and he looks like a real promising kid.

As a Yankee fan, it's like seeing an old foe go. In a way, I'll be sad to see him go.
Get the fuck out of here, are you drunk gom? Were you out at Finnys before or something? I would love nothing more than to see Manny Ramirez leave the Red Sox. Shit, I would go up to Boston and drive his ass to the airport. I won't miss him one bit. I'll be happy that he can go somewhere else, out of our division and league, and I can truly admire the fellow New Yorker's talents. Rather than having to root against a player I enjoy watching so much.

Gom

07-30-2008, 11:55 PM

Lin is nasty. I'd heard of him, but not until I got to see him go deep at Yankee Stadium during the Futures Game did I realize just how legitimate of a prospect he was. Did some research after that and he looks like a real promising kid.

Get the fuck out of here, are you drunk gom? Were you out at Finnys before or something? I would love nothing more than to see Manny Ramirez leave the Red Sox. Shit, I would go up to Boston and drive his ass to the airport. I won't miss him one bit. I'll be happy that he can go somewhere else, out of our division and league, and I can truly admire the fellow New Yorker's talents. Rather than having to root against a player I enjoy watching so much.
In a way sad to see him go. I'd be ecstatic if he left. Kinda like Schilling. He went head to head with us, and beat us. A grudging respect, and knowing that we are seeing something and someone we won't see again any time soon. It'll be like when Rivera goes for the Sox fans, or Jeter.

Beckett95

07-31-2008, 12:02 AM

im not gonna be sad at all when jeter leaves, but its gonna be weird watching yankees games with someone else playing short. same with rivera and seeing someone else in the 9th.

but ill be very happy when those 2 are done

BoSox34

07-31-2008, 12:05 AM

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/tools/med/2008/07/ipt/1217477867.jpg

User Name

07-31-2008, 12:06 AM

At least he spelled Favre right.

We better fucking keep him. :(

BoSox34

07-31-2008, 12:07 AM

I doubt he wrote that.

Beckett95

07-31-2008, 12:09 AM

We better fucking keep him. :(

its not looking to good as of now

example1

07-31-2008, 12:09 AM

Damn, how far in the future are we talkin' here? Never heard of Exposito, Kalish, Reddick or Lin.

This is what makes me confident that the FO knows the team and the trading possibilities better than you do.

Lin was the MVP of the futures game.

Who would you have had the Sox pick up for LF starting next year?

What would your plan have been when Hermeda went down with an injury in September and this team doesn't make it out of the first round? Just wondering?

User Name

07-31-2008, 12:09 AM

Boras probably did.

Boras started all this shit. Christ, I will be pissed if he is responsible for Manny's demise.

Gom

07-31-2008, 12:11 AM

Just who do you think is behind this?

Cityofchampions33

07-31-2008, 12:11 AM

In a way sad to see him go. I'd be ecstatic if he left. Kinda like Schilling. He went head to head with us, and beat us. A grudging respect, and knowing that we are seeing something and someone we won't see again any time soon. It'll be like when Rivera goes for the Sox fans, or Jeter.

Great post, I've been having that vibe all season whenever I see Mo or Jeter, though Mo looks like he can go for a bit longer.

As far the trade, while the parts we're getting aren't Holliday and a Type A Reliever, Manny has sort of forced this trade and tied the Sox hands. Only part I don't agree with is the jack Wilson/Lowrie part, like seriously what's the point. In the end It'll be bittersweet to see him go, but my feeling right now is happy.

arbitrary

07-31-2008, 12:12 AM

I doubt he wrote that.

He forgot a semicolon, or at least a comma.

That's all I really have to add. That, and I tend to find the Boston media WAY more annoying than Manny. I'll be sad to see him go, but he played a role in this as well.

Beckett95

07-31-2008, 12:12 AM

Kevin Goldstein of baseball prospectus--

We Have A Deal, Redux?
Maybe, maybe not. Here’s the thing, I’ve heard the Manny to Florida deal in about five different variations, and if you add in the variations from Will and John, it probably gets into the teens. My best source has it as (and this is somewhat simpler than others):

Mike Stanton (Low-A slugger), Ryan Tucker and Jeremy Hermida go to Pittsburgh

Jason Bay and John Grabow go to Boston

Manny Ramirez goes to Florida, with Boston paying every cent of what’s still owed to him this year.

Who’s right? Who’s wrong? I don’t know, but my guess is nobody nails this one until it’s done.

ughh, fuck bay and grabow and atlaest keep the marlins prospects

Bay and Hermida have the same effect on the Sox playoff chances, in that they probably wont make it this year.
So why not get Hermida who is going to help out more in the future than Bay, not to mention that Tucker and Stanton all have huge upside.

And why are the Marlins so eager to getting Manny? It seems like theyll do almost anything to get him right now.

Anuj09

07-31-2008, 12:24 AM

is bay signed through next year?

msubulldogs21

07-31-2008, 12:27 AM

is bay signed through next year?

Yes. I think he's making in the $7 M range.

Gom

07-31-2008, 12:28 AM

example1

07-31-2008, 01:02 AM

So, a lot of people here are very close to the ledge and are drawing lines in the sand in terms of this deal. Jason Bay is an excellent pickup for Manny if it is true, given the current situation.

Here's the deal folks: (contest any of the following premises if you want)

1) We all love Manny's antics and his bat, over his career with the Sox in particular. However, if a deal does not happen then Manny Ramirez will be with the Sox through this season only. After that he will be gone.

2) Manny Ramirez makes 20,000,000 a year but plays like someone who deserves 13-14m.

3) Manny has asked for trades explicitly numerous times

4) Manny has called out the FO, accusing them of disrespecting him despite being a top-5 paid player in baseball

5) Despite attempts to claim otherwise, Manny did NOT single handedly win the World Series for the Red Sox. Without Dave Roberts the Sox lose. Period. (and Roberts didn't do it single handedly either, same could be said of Schilling, Mueller, Foulke, etc.,)

6) The Red Sox continually tried to meet Manny's request, but have been largely unable to do so for anything approaching equal value (equal value = progressively: 5 yrs of Manny, 4 yrs of Manny, 3 yrs, etc.,).

7) Manny's current value is NOTHING OTHER THAN August, September and part of October of 2008 Manny. His current value is not his HOF numbers, it is not his 2004 performance or his 1.097 OPS of 2002. His current value is his .932 OPS and his mediocre defensive play. It is mitigated by his off-field absurdities.

8) Jason Bay is not an "average" outfielder--as some have claimed here. He has a career .892 OPS. Let's put that in some context: that places him 72nd ALL TIME, just below Magglio Ordonez and just above Nomar. It is also above Willie McCovey, Willie Stargel, Eddie Matthews, Harmon Killebrew, Derrek Lee, Pat Burrell, Derek Jeter, Alfonso Soriano, Carlos Lee, Fred Lynn, Aramis Ramirez, Paul Konerko, Kirby Puckett, Andruw Jones or Miguel Tejada... to name a few. He has the 4th best SLG in Pirates history.

9) As far as I know, all of the above was done with no noticable steroid or HGH usage (no power surges, no growth, etc.,).

10) We would also have Bay for 2009, allowing us to go after a guy like Matt Holliday if that makes anyone feel better.

11) Bay costs 7.5m in 2009, was the 2004 ROY, has driven in 100+ runs twice (on a shitty team).

12) Bay is not represented by Scott Boras, and may sign for a reasonable deal if he is worth keeping.
=========

I could go on and on about why the Sox making a deal to bring back Bay for a year-plus is more than reasonable given the time constraints and the limits of players available.

Again, please lay out other plausible scenarios for the remainder of this season and the post-Manny era and why they are better than getting Bay.

Would people be okay here if Manny hadn't played for most of the rest of the season by putting himself on the DL in an effort to pout about not having his TWENTY MILLION dollar option picked up?

There is no doubt that Jason Bay is not Manny Ramirez overall. Manny is one of the best hitters of all time. However, he is not CURRENTLY one of the best hitters of all time and his time with the Sox is precarious and very short.

Please offer something better before slamming someone as good as Jason Bay. Anyone else ask themselves why other teams weren't willing to part with other good talent to get Manny? (hint: it's bcause he's not as good as he used to be).

Finally, a particular Yankees fan made the point that it was disgraceful that Sox fans were booing Manny. Fuck that. Yankees fans were booing Alex Rodriguez last year when he didn't do what fans wanted. Get over yourself. It is fair for fans of ANY TEAM to want their players to hustle and to shut up and play.

Again, Manny Ramirez makes $40,000 PER AB (assuming he gets 500 plus ABs per year) (we all acknowledge that Manny is paid to hit, right? He would be the DH if we had an open spot, right?).

All those who make ONE lazy-Manny-run to 1st in a year (40,000), raise your keyboards!!

All those who make TWO lazy-Manny-runs to 1st in a year (80,000), raise your keyboards!!

Anyone here make the equivalent of THREE lazy-Manny-runs to 1st in a year (120,000)? FOUR (160,000)? He did that in the last 3 days.

Do I begrudge him trotting down the line sometimes? No. I do begrudge him for acting as if this isn't part of it for fans who hear him saying he doesn't want to play for the Sox, or in Boston, or who say that someone who is willing to pay him that much to NOT be Albert Pujols or A-Rod is disrespecting him.

He says the Sox are disrespecting him for not picking up his 40m option for the next two years. DOES ANYONE ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT HE IS WORTH 20m A YEAR?

Anyone who would pay him 20m with his current production should lose their GM job. Furthermore, anyone who would not trade those as-of-yet undetermined draft picks for a year and a half of Jason Bay when you have a gaping LF hole is also making me wonder about their sanity (ps... we can get draft picks if we let Bay go after 2009, so we can get other guys JACOBY ELLSBURY hasn't heard of <_< ).

Bay is not the only answer to the question of how to replace Manny so this team wins. That is the goal, isn't it?

Would anyone complain if the Sox made a push and replaced Wakefield with, say, Yu Darvish or spent their money in some other very productive way in the future? Jesus, let's get creative here with the 13m difference between them. Lord knows Theo would LOVE to have that possibility.

BoSox34

07-31-2008, 01:10 AM

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-31-2008, 01:14 AM

This is what makes me confident that the FO knows the team and the trading possibilities better than you do.

Lin was the MVP of the futures game.

Who would you have had the Sox pick up for LF starting next year?

What would your plan have been when Hermeda went down with an injury in September and this team doesn't make it out of the first round? Just wondering?

Dont know what your problem is, but yeah, you're absolutely right. I don't know shit about the Boston Red Sox, because I don't pay attention to what goes on in Pawtucket, Portland, etc.. OMG! The Futures Game! The Fucking Futures Game! I don't care about that or anything else that goes on during the all-star break! Who would I have the Sox pick up for LF next year? If I couldn't find any sufficient outside possibilities, I'd just pick up Manny's option. That's not difficult, seeing as Boston controls his future completely as long as they have him. Never thought of that, huh? And WTF do you mean WHEN Hermida goes down with injury? How the hell do you know whether someone will get injured or not? Can you see into the future? Are you a fucking medium? You can't predict the future so don't even use that shit on me. I think if anyone here was qualified to running the Boston Red Sox they'd have some kind of position with the team already. But no, we're just a bunch of geeks fucking around on a message board.

Fuck, I've had an account here not even 12 hours and someone's already managed to make me crack. Unbelievable.

BigPapiEnFuego

07-31-2008, 01:18 AM

I'm starting to like this Jacoby Ellsbury guy even more. Not only can he steal bases and shit, but he's a pretty cool forum poster.

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-31-2008, 01:21 AM

I'm starting to like this Jacoby Ellsbury guy even more. Not only can he steal bases and shit, but he's a pretty cool forum poster.

I aim to please. :D

Ur not too bad either.

Gom

07-31-2008, 01:21 AM

example1

07-31-2008, 01:22 AM

Who cares if he doesn't run out a few ground balls and has a few Manny moments per year. He is one of the most productive hitters in Red Sox history and the most entertaining player I have ever watched. I'm just pissed at the media for trying to make Manny out to look like a lazy player who doesn't care. This guy has put up HUUUGE numbers and has been a major part of two world titles. He has his bad moments, but the media doesn't appreciate him nearly enough. If the Red Sox really move Manny, I hope they sign Barry Bonds. Piss off this stupid out of touch media that has been helping to fuel a fire which is running Manny out of town.

1. "Has" put up huge numbers. Last year were Gom and Jacksonianmarch reveling in their 26 World Series Championships while the Sox were dancing in Coors? Perhaps you don't understand that baseball is a business. It is all about what have you done for me lately, and the owners (who ultimately fork out the 20m per year for a guy like Manny) have every right to demand nothing but the best. Know how you feel when you order a Filet Mignon and it comes to the table charred and dry? Multiply that by 500,000 and you'll see where John Henry is coming from here in the 8th year of Manny's career.

2. The media doesn't appreciate him enough? The only person not appreciating is Manny. How much money would it take for you to hustle when you're trying to PROVE that you're worth 25m a year? Is he worth 25m (100/4) because he plays hard every day, or because his knees are too sore to run down the line? He can't have it both ways.

3. Want to see what a player who cares looks like? Look at Varitek after he K's recently, or Ortiz.

I'm not a Manny hater. I'm really not. He's always been one of my favorites. I just think it is important that people look at the various players individually. Jason Bay is not 'average', he has been very, very good and his age and current level of production seem to indicate that he will continue for awhile at a considerably lower cost.

Why don't you criticize Manny for saying he'll get 25m a year as a FA instead of taking less to stay with the Sox? If everyone acknowledges that he's a mid-900 OPS guy, that his best season from here on out will likely be 30 HR/120 RBI, then why should the Sox SETTLE for draft picks if they can get a Jason Bay?

This discussion should really be about Jason Bay, not Manny Ramirez. Manny leaving was inevitable, and Bay is likely better than anyone the Sox would have acquired as a FA in the offseason.

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-31-2008, 01:23 AM

It's fucking idiotic of fans who booed Alex. Trust me, the real fans know Alex and what he means. He busts his ass every day. It's like those idiot Yankee fans who feel that rooting for Alex is going against Derek Jeter.

Give me Arod any day of the week over Jeter. I love Jeter, but he's no Arod. Same way that you guys may love Tek, but he's no Manny.

It has bugged me too how the NY fans swarm A-Rod the minute he makes even the most negligable mistake, and how the NY tabloids blow up his personal life for all the public to see. Really disgusting stuff.

Gom

07-31-2008, 01:24 AM

I second the motion on this Ellsbury guy. I like him too. Sounds a lot like me.

Hey Jacoby.

Bite me you loser. There. That's the welcome I wanted to give you.

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-31-2008, 01:25 AM

I second the motion on this Ellsbury guy. I like him too. Sounds a lot like me.

Hey Jacoby.

Bite me you loser. There. That's the welcome I wanted to give you.

I feel accepted now. :thumbsup:

BoSox34

07-31-2008, 01:26 AM

1. "Has" put up huge numbers. Last year were Gom and Jacksonianmarch reveling in their 26 World Series Championships while the Sox were dancing in Coors? Perhaps you don't understand that baseball is a business. It is all about what have you done for me lately, and the owners (who ultimately fork out the 20m per year for a guy like Manny) have every right to demand nothing but the best. Know how you feel when you order a Filet Mignon and it comes to the table charred and dry? Multiply that by 500,000 and you'll see where John Henry is coming from here in the 8th year of Manny's career.

2. The media doesn't appreciate him enough? The only person not appreciating is Manny. How much money would it take for you to hustle when you're trying to PROVE that you're worth 25m a year? Is he worth 25m (100/4) because he plays hard every day, or because his knees are too sore to run down the line? He can't have it both ways.

3. Want to see what a player who cares looks like? Look at Varitek after he K's recently, or Ortiz.

I'm not a Manny hater. I'm really not. He's always been one of my favorites. I just think it is important that people look at the various players individually. Jason Bay is not 'average', he has been very, very good and his age and current level of production seem to indicate that he will continue for awhile at a considerably lower cost.

Why don't you criticize Manny for saying he'll get 25m a year as a FA instead of taking less to stay with the Sox? If everyone acknowledges that he's a mid-900 OPS guy, that his best season from here on out will likely be 30 HR/120 RBI, then why should the Sox SETTLE for draft picks if they can get a Jason Bay?

This discussion should really be about Jason Bay, not Manny Ramirez. Manny leaving was inevitable, and Bay is likely better than anyone the Sox would have acquired as a FA in the offseason.

I'd rather seeing Manny hitting home runs, driving in runs, and being a player who opponents work their gameplan around than seeing Varitek "care" when he strikes out...which is a lot. Varitek is more of a problem than Manny.

Gom

07-31-2008, 01:27 AM

Last year were Gom and Jacksonianmarch reveling in their 26 World Series Championships while the Sox were dancing in Coors?
Truthfully, I was shitting a brick that Arod was opting out.

Cityofchampions33

07-31-2008, 01:45 AM

Seems like what else the Sox would receive are iffy, some reports indicate Grabow going to Florida. If this means we get Stanton I am ALL for it.

Manny, prospect (hopefully not of significance)

for

Bay, Bay's 2010 replacement

Yes please.

Cityofchampions33

07-31-2008, 01:48 AM

now i'm just flat out confused

The Red Sox, Marlins and Pirates continue to talk seriously about a three-way trade involving Manny Ramirez, but a deal still is not assured of being completed, major-league sources say.

"If anyone thinks this is a slam dunk, that's not the case," says one source with knowledge of the discussions.

The teams still have yet to agree on the players in the deal, though the basic framework for the blockbuster is in place.

The Marlins would trade outfielder Jeremy Hermida and a prospect for Ramirez, and the Red Sox then would flip Hermida and prospects to the Pirates for left fielder Jason Bay and possibly left-handed reliever John Grabow.

Two prominent Marlins prospects who have been mentioned — Class AA right-hander Ryan Tucker and Class A outfielder Michael Stanton — will not be traded, multiple sources say.

For Bay, who turns 30 on Sept. 20, the Pirates presumably would need to exceed the offer they received from the Braves last week — Class AAA outfielder Brandon Jones, Class AAA shortstop Brent Lillibridge and two pitchers in the low minors.

The Pirates, one source says, want an "appropriate return for an All-Star caliber left fielder" — and one who is affordable at $5.75 million this season and $7.5 million in 2009.

link:http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8398172/Teams-should-still-consider-trading-for-Dunn

example1

07-31-2008, 02:07 AM

Dont know what your problem is, but yeah, you're absolutely right.

My problem is that you're dominating the board with innane discussion about the greatness of Mannys past instead of the actual present without understanding how the system works. You need a counter balance so this board stays intelligent.

I don't know shit about the Boston Red Sox, because I don't pay attention to what goes on in Pawtucket, Portland, etc..

Without knowing how the system works you can't understand why decisions are made. For instance, the Red Sox let go of Pedro Martinez and got a draft pick. Who did they sign with that draft pick?

The Sox let go of Orlando Cabrera (but he did SO MUCH FOR THIS TEAM!!! YAY!!) and who did they get (hint... you call yourself by his name).

If the Sox FO didn't care about any of this, if they didn't care about the draft or the minor leagues then a lot of these decisions would not have made sense. By understanding how the rules work and how the FO attempts to construct its team to get THE MOST FOR THEIR MONEY then one is bound to judge everything based on very superficial ideas...

Who would I have the Sox pick up for LF next year? If I couldn't find any sufficient outside possibilities, I'd just pick up Manny's option.

And I would counter that for the money (20m), and with some smart draft picks, the Sox could pay for the following signed/developed talent (approx 2008 salary):

Jacoby Ellsbury: 400,000
Dustin Pedroia: 450,000
Jonathan Papelbon: 800,000
Kevin Youkilis: 3 million
Josh Beckett: 9.5 million

and still have enough to pay, say, David Wright (Mets) (5m).

Get the point? You would "just pick up Manny's option" which is one reason that you will never be a GM. NOBODY will pay Manny 20m, let alone the 25 he says he will get. Look at his numbers the past 2 years, look at his age. I'm not trying to be a downer, but seriously, get real. He's an aging star whose numbers have dropped over the past few years. He's still pretty good but he's not going to get better--given the talent listed above, I think it is pretty clear to see why the Sox FO thinks they can spend their money better than by signing Manny at 20m per.

That's not difficult, seeing as Boston controls his future completely as long as they have him.

How would you know? What do you know about controlling the future? Do you know what "options" are, or that Manny has a no-trade clause?

Never thought of that, huh? And WTF do you mean WHEN Hermida goes down with injury? How the hell do you know whether someone will get injured or not? Can you see into the future? Are you a fucking medium? You can't predict the future so don't even use that shit on me.

I predict injuries based on history of injuries. Hermida has a history of injuries and hasn't played more than 120 games in a season. Jason Bay (if he plays 15 more games this year) will have played in 120 games in 5 consecutive seasons--his ONLY 5 seasons in baseball.

I think if anyone here was qualified to running the Boston Red Sox they'd have some kind of position with the team already. But no, we're just a bunch of geeks fucking around on a message board.

There's a heirarchy though:

1. Actual GMs
2. Wannabe GMs
3. Fans who understand how the business side of the game works but who know the actual GMs know it better.
4. Fans who don't understand how the business side of the game works, but who know it is an important--though complicated--system that explains many otherwise confusing moves.
5. Fans who don't understand how the business side of the game works, but who are too ignorant to know that it is important.
6. Fans who don't understand how the business side of the game works, who are too ignorant to know that it is important, and who MOCK those who DO care about how the business side of the game works.

7. Fans who don't understand business side, too ignorant to know it is important, mocking those who take the time to learn it, while also thinking they are smarter than the Actual GM's at the top of the heirarchy. (that's you, apparently)

Fuck, I've had an account here not even 12 hours and someone's already managed to make me crack. Unbelievable.

I like your enthusiasm (honestly, I do), but you really have to step up the depth of your analysis if you want to understand how the game works. Or, you need to step up your humility. I've learned a lot from people like ORS, Jacksonian and JHB, but only because I've stayed open to their analysis. Hopefully you will take some time to read about how the system works before thinking your brief inclinations reflect some abstract mastery of its intricacies.

I'm not saying that I'm "right", but usually if you think you know way better than the multi-million GM who has helped produce 2 WS rings, you should check (and then re-check) your logic before being so bold as to say so out loud. If you're starting with "Who cares about the minor leagues" I'd say re-checking your work is still pretty far away. Right now is the time for you to learn how teams work.

example1

07-31-2008, 02:20 AM

I'd rather seeing Manny hitting home runs, driving in runs, and being a player who opponents work their gameplan around than seeing Varitek "care" when he strikes out...which is a lot. Varitek is more of a problem than Manny.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know it was a Varitek OR Manny kind of thing. I just thought that people should care how they perform, or, at the very least, IF they perform.

Do you think Manny is worth 20m dollars? Real dollars, not monopoly dollars?

BoSox34

07-31-2008, 02:24 AM

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know it was a Varitek OR Manny kind of thing. I just thought that people should care how they perform, or, at the very least, IF they perform.

Do you think Manny is worth 20m dollars? Real dollars, not monopoly dollars?

No I don't think a player who bats 1000 and hits 400 home runs a year deserves that much money. There are so many more important jobs which deserve more income, especially in today's day in age. I think players' contracts are so ridiculous that it's not even worth discussing who's worth what because in actuality, nobody in sports is worth their salary in my opinion. They play a game for a living and are pampered like royalty.

yankees228

07-31-2008, 02:31 AM

No I don't think a player who bats 1000 and hits 400 home runs a year deserves that much money. There are so many more important jobs which deserve more income, especially in today's day in age. I think players' contracts are so ridiculous that it's not even worth discussing who's worth what because in actuality, nobody in sports is worth their salary in my opinion. They play a game for a living and are pampered like royalty.

Obviously...but the argument has to be based on market value.

Jacoby_Ellsbury

07-31-2008, 04:10 AM

My problem is that you're dominating the board with innane discussion about the greatness of Mannys past instead of the actual present without understanding how the system works. You need a counter balance so this board stays intelligent.

Well the ignore feature exists for this very reason I suppose.

Without knowing how the system works you can't understand why decisions are made. For instance, the Red Sox let go of Pedro Martinez and got a draft pick. Who did they sign with that draft pick?

The Sox let go of Orlando Cabrera (but he did SO MUCH FOR THIS TEAM!!! YAY!!) and who did they get (hint... you call yourself by his name).

Ah, OK, now I'm confused. You're stating how letting Martinez/Cabrera go bagged us rock-solid prospects that are in the majors right now. So wouldn't that just add a reason to keep Manny now, let him walk in free agency, and take our two draft picks?

If the Sox FO didn't care about any of this, if they didn't care about the draft or the minor leagues then a lot of these decisions would not have made sense. By understanding how the rules work and how the FO attempts to construct its team to get THE MOST FOR THEIR MONEY then one is bound to judge everything based on very superficial ideas...

Who ever said I don't care about the minor leagues? I don't care about the futures game, just like I don't care about anything that goes on during the all-star break. I don't follow the minor leagues as closely as I do the Sox for the simple reason that its difficult to get coverage and watch those teams and their players in action. If you can't see the games, what's the point? The Pawtucket Sox aren't exactly spewing coverage on every TV station.

And I would counter that for the money (20m), and with some smart draft picks, the Sox could pay for the following signed/developed talent (approx 2008 salary):

Jacoby Ellsbury: 400,000
Dustin Pedroia: 450,000
Jonathan Papelbon: 800,000
Kevin Youkilis: 3 million
Josh Beckett: 9.5 million

and still have enough to pay, say, David Wright (Mets) (5m).

Fair enough, this round is yours. I already know who David Wright plays for, by the way.

Get the point? You would "just pick up Manny's option" which is one reason that you will never be a GM. NOBODY will pay Manny 20m, let alone the 25 he says he will get. Look at his numbers the past 2 years, look at his age. I'm not trying to be a downer, but seriously, get real. He's an aging star whose numbers have dropped over the past few years. He's still pretty good but he's not going to get better--given the talent listed above, I think it is pretty clear to see why the Sox FO thinks they can spend their money better than by signing Manny at 20m per.

Manny's not going to get better but he still provides a damn good bat when his head's screwed on tightly. Call me crazy, but losing Manny and putting Coco Crisp or Brandon Moss in his place in left, and subsequently moving Youk or Lowell up to the 4 hole would hurt this team's lineup in a big way. What I'm saying is, obviously exhaust all options trying to bring a quality outfield bat in to replace Manny first, and if every single option falls through, just fall back to Manny for one more year. And trust me, I don't want that to happen, but I think we more or less would have too to ensure that Ortiz doesn't have as many walks as at-bats, and for the better of the team on the field. I don't have a business degree, I can't pretend that I do, that's what I'm going to college for. Right now I just see a gaping hole in left field and in the batting order if Manny departs. Letting him leave through trade is absolute idiocy because Jason Bay simply doesn't measure up and John Grabow, let's face it, sucks.

How would you know? What do you know about controlling the future? Do you know what "options" are, or that Manny has a no-trade clause?

Yes and yes. What I meant was, if we want to keep Manny, we can definitely do so. I wasn't referring to our ability to shop him.

I predict injuries based on history of injuries. Hermida has a history of injuries and hasn't played more than 120 games in a season. Jason Bay (if he plays 15 more games this year) will have played in 120 games in 5 consecutive seasons--his ONLY 5 seasons in baseball.

How long has Jeremy Hermida been around? 2+ years I think. Not much of a sample size.

There's a heirarchy though:

1. Actual GMs
2. Wannabe GMs
3. Fans who understand how the business side of the game works but who know the actual GMs know it better.
4. Fans who don't understand how the business side of the game works, but who know it is an important--though complicated--system that explains many otherwise confusing moves.
5. Fans who don't understand how the business side of the game works, but who are too ignorant to know that it is important.
6. Fans who don't understand how the business side of the game works, who are too ignorant to know that it is important, and who MOCK those who DO care about how the business side of the game works.

7. Fans who don't understand business side, too ignorant to know it is important, mocking those who take the time to learn it, while also thinking they are smarter than the Actual GM's at the top of the heirarchy. (that's you, apparently)

clearly :rolleyes:

I like your enthusiasm (honestly, I do), but you really have to step up the depth of your analysis if you want to understand how the game works. Or, you need to step up your humility. I've learned a lot from people like ORS, Jacksonian and JHB, but only because I've stayed open to their analysis. Hopefully you will take some time to read about how the system works before thinking your brief inclinations reflect some abstract mastery of its intricacies.

I'm not trying to make enemies. Smart-ass tactics just don't do it for me though.

I'm not saying that I'm "right", but usually if you think you know way better than the multi-million GM who has helped produce 2 WS rings, you should check (and then re-check) your logic before being so bold as to say so out loud. If you're starting with "Who cares about the minor leagues" I'd say re-checking your work is still pretty far away. Right now is the time for you to learn how teams work.

I do care about the minor leagues. Anyone who doesn't is just stupid. Forgive the internet nobody for doing so, but my assessment of Theo is this: excellent drafter, knows when to let big-name players go, not good at picking guys to sign to replace the stars he let go of, below-average trader.

jacksonianmarch

07-31-2008, 07:13 AM

So to recap. After I worked a depressing overnight shift, I get to see that nobody really knows what the fuck is going on.

I have read that the sox are giving up Manny and a deal has been submitted for the commish to sign off on. SO all we really know is Manny is leaving and greater than 1 mil in cash is involved.

But the rest? Who knows.

I have heard Grabow and Bay to the Sox with Manny going to the Marlins and the sox giving up 2 top prospects.

I have heard Manny and Lowrie leaving with Bay and Wilson coming to the sox.

I have heard Manny to the Marlins for Hermida and two top prospects.

Right now, the rumor mill is swirling.

riverside sluggers

07-31-2008, 07:18 AM

http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/sp_bb_sean_mcadam31_07-31-08_UPB21FT_v17.41212cd.html

Nothing really new in the updates from Sean MacAdams. But he does note the Kansas City Royals have offered Ron Mahay to Boston for Brandon Moss. Thoughts?

BoSox21

07-31-2008, 07:31 AM

jacksonianmarch

07-31-2008, 07:34 AM

Depends on the Manny deal IMO. If the sox deal away Manny and dont get Bay, you should keep Moss since he might even end up beating out Hermida in the long run. if the sox get Bay, then you should do it

TheKilo

07-31-2008, 07:39 AM

what would the point of dealing Burrell for Manny be? They are right about equal in terms of performance right now, while Burrell is younger and cheaper

You just answered your own question.

TheKilo

07-31-2008, 07:41 AM

Bullshit. If that's the type of trade we're making, we're getting ripped off. I just want to keep Manny. :angry:

The only one on the Marlins I'd trade Manny for is Hanley.

Why are the Marlins going to trade 2 months of Manny for Hanley Ramirez?

Do you people even think before you post?

jacksonianmarch

07-31-2008, 07:48 AM

BoSox21

07-31-2008, 07:58 AM

TheKilo

07-31-2008, 08:07 AM

yeszir

07-31-2008, 08:19 AM

I don't get why he apologized to me? :dunno: For oozing hypocrisy?

TheKilo

07-31-2008, 08:23 AM

The Manny apologists in this thread make me laugh. Manny is no longer an elite (he is very good) hitter and he's terrible defensively.

Jason Bay is a very good hitter and above average defensively.

A run saved counts just as much as a run earned. Jason Bay is a more than adequate replacement for Manny Ramirez. Past production should have no impact on the decisions moving forward, and it's clear that a break needs to be made between the Sox and Manny.

Although, I'd rather keep Hermida and the FLA prospects as well.

BoSox21

07-31-2008, 08:25 AM

Jason Bay is a very good hitter and above average defensively.

and Canadian as well! :thumbsup:

rician blast

07-31-2008, 08:28 AM

You know something?

I have to say this:

You Red Sox fans are ungrateful [wait...fun police knocking on my door] son of a guns. See? I censored myself.

Manny came to play. He was a WS MVP. You don't win your first championship without him. You don't get past the Indians on the way to your second championship without him. He's been worth every penny. His issues are not with the fans, but with the organization. He's been everything and more for you guys, and you boo him tonight at the game?

Sorry yeszir...but your fans are ungrateful assholes who did that. Trust me, in New York, he gets a standing ovation. Is it any wonder that the profile of stars goes from Boston to New York, and never the other way around?

Good luck Manny, wherever you end up. They may not appreciate you in Boston, but we do in New York. You killed us, but we respected you for it. Good luck and godspeed.

I urge all of the Sox fans here not to take the bait...this is Gom being Gom, at his inciteful best. I'm not sure even HE believes what he wrote here. :thumbdown

riverside sluggers

07-31-2008, 08:35 AM

Manny deal '50-50'

Thursday, July 31, 2008 | Print Entry

Posted by Jayson Stark

Here's what I know about the status of this deal, as of this morning:

• An official of one of these three teams placed the odds of this getting done today at "50-50."

• Multiple sources have said that outfield prospect Mike Stanton is not in this trade, although Boston asked for him and Pittsburgh has been insisting on a prospect of his caliber, in addition to Jeremy Hermida and other prospects.

• Despite reports that left-handed reliever John Grabow would wind up in Boston, indications are that he would actually go to the Marlins if this trade gets done.

• The status of Marlins pitcher Ryan Tucker (recently sent back to the minor leagues to be converted to the bullpen) remains uncertain. Tucker, according to a baseball man who has spoken to the teams involved, is still a name that's "in play."

ORS

07-31-2008, 08:38 AM

I urge all of the Sox fans here not to take the bait...this is Gom being Gom, at his inciteful best. I'm not sure even HE believes what he wrote here. :thumbdown
Bait taken, and thread created in the forum where the warranted responses are allowed.

http://www.talksox.com/forum/anything-goes/10964-more-nonsense.html#post337750

rician blast

07-31-2008, 08:42 AM

So let's say. regardless of whether Manny gets traded or not, the "bad blood" continues (that is Manny continues commenting on how he's unappreciated, etc and the media runs with it) and Manny hits the FA market after this season.

Would this not be EXACTLY what the Yankees (and their fans) want to see, in terms of being able to point to the Sox in whatever negative manner possible (since they're clearly obsessed with Boston), and perhaps provide the Yankees even more of a reason to acquire Manny?

Could it be that Manny is painting the Sox FO in a bad light to increase his chances of landing in the Bronx?

TheKilo

07-31-2008, 08:45 AM

Let him go.

example1

07-31-2008, 08:51 AM

not that im trying to take this thread on a tangent but ive always felt athletes deserve what they make. they are directly responsible for the billions of dollars in revenue professional sports leagues make so why shouldn't they be paid in accordance to the revenue they generate?

sorry but 35,000 people don't pay $40 a piece to watch a doctor perform surgery, no matter how much more meaningful the doctor's profession is

Atheletes in general deserve what they make, given how much money is in the game.

That said, not EVERY athelete deserves they contract they currently have, and they can do things to either warrant the contract or not.

Things like hustling, showing up at spring training, being a good leader/role model, not insulting their bosses, etc., all go into how most bosses determine whether or not to pick up options. Especially when those options cost the price of (as mentioned before): Ellsbury, Pedroia, Youkilis, Papelbon, Beckett, Jason Bay and David Wright.